Interview with Justin Mares from Kettle and Fire, chatting about the difference between fat adaption and ketosis, signs of keto flu, how to use bone broth, and so much more.
I always say, keto is not one size fits all, and the transition into keto is no different! Some people make the switch and feel like a unicorn with rainbow hair immediately, others may struggle not only to get into ketosis, but to stay in ketosis. The keto flu is a real thing, and it can happen to anyone! It’s hard to reap the fat burning benefits of keto if you’re feeling like hot garbage, so how do you get over the keto flu? And how do you prevent it from coming back?
I talked about this recently in a YouTube video, 5 Easy Steps to Beat Keto Flu. Basically, overcoming the symptoms of keto flu (fatigue, dizziness, brain fog, irritability, stomach woes, the works!) is as simple as getting your electrolytes balanced, and one of the best ways to do that is to supplement with bone broth. The benefits of bone broth go beyond just staving off keto flu — bone broth is also a great way to nourish your gut!
You can make your own bone broth, or you can purchase a high quality, pre-made broth — my favorite is from Kettle and Fire. I wanted to have one of the founders of Kettle and Fire on the podcast to answer your most asked questions about the benefits of bone broth and how it can support your keto experience.
In today’s podcast, I chat with our guest Justin Mares, cofounder of Kettle and Fire, who believes that the healing properties and benefits of quality bone broth should be easily accessible, straight from the box.
This episode is all about how to harness the benefits of electrolytes in bone broth, teach your body to fuel with fat and thrive, promote healing to support your body and mind, and more.
Let’s get to the interview!
For podcast transcript, scroll down.
SHOW NOTES + LINKS
- Subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app
- Want to know if you’re fat adapted? Check the video: Signs You’re Fat Adapted
- Take 20% off your Kettle and Fire chicken bone broth order plus free shipping!
- Read up on the Bone Broth Crash Course from Kettle and Fire
- Want more tips for fighting keto flu? Check out my 5 Easy Steps to Beat Keto Flu
- Follow the Kettle and Fire Instagram for bone broth inspiration
- How to overcome keto flu (18:58)
- What to look for in a quality bone broth (30:40)
- Combining exogenous ketones and bone broth for fat burning awesomeness (38:27)
PARTNERS OF THE KETO DIET PODCAST
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TRANSCRIPT FOR THIS EPISODE
Leanne Vogel: You’re listening to Episode Number 67 of the Keto Diet Podcast. Today we’re chatting about how to overcome keto flu, what to look for in a quality bone broth, combining exogenous ketones and bone broth for a fat burning awesomeness and so much more. So, stay tuned.
Hey, I’m Leanne from HealthfulPursuit.com, and this is The Keto Diet Podcast. Keto is a low-carb, high-fat diet where we’re switching from a sugar-burning state to becoming fat-burning machines. Starting keto and maintaining it long-term can be quite a challenge if you don’t feel supported.
My 60-day program, The Keto Bundle, provides you with clear, step-by-step how-to on successfully adapting to a ketogenic diet, avoiding common ketogenic struggles, and healing your body completely and fully with a ketogenic diet. Go to HealthfulPursuit.com/bundle, and use the coupon code PODCAST all in caps, no spaces to get 10% off your order, exclusive for podcast listeners only. Now, let’s get this party started.
Hey guys, happy Sunday and happy 2018. The show notes and full transcript of today’s episode can be found at HealthfulPursuit.com/podcast/e67. We add the transcript to the post about three to five days following the initial air date of this episode, so stay tuned for that. Let’s hear from one of our awesome partners.
This show is partnered up with paleovalley, the makers of the only 100% grass fed and finished fermented beef stick. Each stick contains one billion probiotic CFUs, and we all know how important fermented foods are to the health of our gut and the strength of our immune system, as well as boosting overall energy. Chowing down on paleovalley’s fermented beef sticks provides your body with all of the beneficial bacteria it loves in one convenient little stick. Their gut friendly sticks are gluten free, soy free, dairy free, GMO free, freaky chemical, additive, dye, and preservative free, as well as being 100% free from carbs and sugar, and made with the highest quality ingredients.
Exclusive to listeners of the show, you can receive an instant savings of 20% off paleovalley fermented beef stick snacks by going to paleovalley.com/keto, and if your jaw is tired just thinking about beef jerky, I gotta tell you that these tasty treats are not tough at all, but moist, with a little snap. Again, that’s paleovalley.com/keto, for an instant 20% off savings, and if you’re unsure of the link, simply check out the show notes of today’s episode to get all of the details.
Okay, we got two announcements today. The first is that last time we interviewed a owner of one of the supplements that we promote on the podcast, you guys asked for a disclaimer at the beginning of the podcast and we didn’t have one. So, this is your disclaimer. Today I will be interviewing one of the owners of Kettle & Fire who is one of the partners on the podcast. If we have met in person or you’ve been following Healthful Pursuit for quite some time, maybe you came on the book tour, we hugged it out, we chatted about products, you know how passionate I am about promoting the right products and aligning Healthful Pursuit and the podcast and everything we do with the right type of people.
And it’s one thing to find a really good product that you love, but it’s a whole other thing to find a product that you love with a crew of people behind it that are just totally rad. And all of the partners that I share on the podcast, I have a relationship with these people and these crews of people making this happen and we align on so many different points and I want to have them on the show because they have so much to share. Outside of their product or what they’re selling, it’s just that they’re really cool people and I think that you would learn from them, and new things. So, this is your disclaimer that one of the owners of Kettle & Fire is the person that I’m interviewing and they are also a podcast partner. But everything that I share is legit how I feel. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have them on the show because that would be ridiculous.
The second announcement is that we’re going to be talking about keto flu and how to know that you’re fat adapted. So, check out the show notes today where I link out to two different videos that I made in the past. The first is 5 Easy Steps to Beat Keto Flu and the other one is Signs to Know that You’re Fat Adapted. So if you’re curious about what we’re talking about and how to know and how to overcome this, definitely check out those two resources.
So, our guest today is Justin. And Nick couldn’t be with us today, but Justin and Nick Mares are two brothers who are passionate about health. In 2013 Nick experienced a knee injury, and Justin like a good brother, started looking for ways to help his recovery process. As the brothers learned more about the nutrients of bone broth, collagen, amino acids and other awesome things, they also found out that there were not really good products on the market. The only bone broths that were available were either frozen, powdered or made with unhealthy ingredients. Through trial and error Justin and Nick pursued their dream of developing a better bone broth. And Kettle & Fire the first shelf-stable, long simmered, commercial bone broth from grass fed sources was born.
So today Justin and I are going to be focusing a lot on the benefits of bone broth. But before we get started with the show I wanted to answer some of your questions about going from ketosis, how fat adaption works, my personal experience with these things. Because I’m guessing because it’s January some of you guys are new to the podcast and you may not understand all the concepts and you need somebody to walk you through and I would love to be that person.
So, the first question we had from our community was the fat adaption process versus actual ketosis. So, the question is, what’s the difference between fat adaption and ketosis? So, the way I see it and it’ll be different depending on who you ask, is that ketosis is the end state. So ketosis and the state of being ketogenic is where we want to get to. The process of getting to ketosis is the fat adaption stage. So we are trying to become fat adapted, which means that we can burn fat as energy quite easily. It’s really easy for our body. And so the fat adaption process is getting there, and the end result is that we are fat adapted and in a state of ketosis.
Now, here’s where things get a little bit complicated, or just bear with me. So we can be fat adapted but eat carbohydrates and that’s where my carb-up practice takes into effect. So if you’ve been eating ketogenic, you are fat adapted, you’re eating keto, life is good. You have some carbs, and that moment that you have carbs you’re still fat adapted. Your body still knows how to burn fat, but you’re eating carbs. So, you ate the carbs, then you get back slowly into fat burning mode. You’re still fat adapted throughout that entire experience until you get back into ketosis. Now that process should take about 24 hours, so we’re not talking about days of keto flu and craziness, but that’s kind of how I see the difference.
And the next question is, is it possible to become fat adapted if someone is having trouble getting into and staying into ketosis? It is definitely possible. There are many, many people that I’ve met and worked with one on one where their bodies metabolically just aren’t able to get in a deep state of ketosis. Now that can be supplemented. If you find you do better with ketones in your body and you feel better that way, you can use something like an exogenous ketone product. My personal favorite is Perfect Keto. I will not share anything else because I just don’t see the value in those items.
But with ketosis, yes of course, you don’t necessarily need to be in a deep, deep state of ketosis to become fat adapted. If you have my program, Fat Fueled, which is in my larger program, The Keto Bundle, it chats all about the Daily Fat Burner fat fueled profile and how you can eat keto all day, have a touch of carbs at night and still become fat adapted. Like I was just saying, the process of becoming fat adapted is a process. But once we get there we become a lot more metabolically efficient to be able to handle different fuels.
And the next question is, why is it important to get out of keto flu? So in today’s recording we’re going to be chatting about keto flu. What keto flu is, how to overcome it. But why is it important to get out of keto flu? I don’t know if it’s necessarily important. You could definitely stay in keto flu if you want to deal with muscle spasms, and cramps and headaches and dehydration and probably mood fluctuations if it goes long enough. I mean, I don’t really want to stay in that state. I don’t know if you do. Maybe that’s motivating or something. But you probably want to get out of keto flu because it feels like garbage when you’re in it. That would be my answer.
The next question is, how does someone become fat adapted? What are the actionable steps? You really, in order to do it as quickly as possible, you probably just want to eat keto. And if you want to eat keto you’re in the right place. Listen to some of my podcasts, read some of the blog posts I’ve put out there. There’s over 1,500 of them. Follow some of the recipes I have on HealthfulPursuit.com/recipes and you’ll be set.
Is ketosis required? Are we required to always be in ketosis? The answer is no. Unless you have a health condition where you need to have ketones running through your body constantly, no, you don’t need to be in ketosis constantly. As we’ll learn from our guest today, he actually dips in and out of ketosis for months. So he’ll eat keto for a couple of months, and then eat paleo for a couple of months. So there are many different ways to do it. I find that I do best with jumping out of ketosis maybe once every two weeks by just having a carb up and then jumping back into ketosis the next day. But it’s not required.
And what are the benefits of being fat adapted? Oh my gosh, so many benefits. Some of them can include mood stability, blood sugar stability, hormone regulation, appetite suppressing and just regulating. Once you’re fat adapted what happens is you’re now in this state where your body can burn fat as fuel, and that in and of itself is a huge benefit. You’re being satiated by fat, you’re not being controlled by cravings of carbohydrates. So those are some of the benefits.
What does it feel like to be fat adapted and how does this differ from the feeling you get in ketosis? I think that there … A lot of these questions that I get are so meticulous and I don’t think it needs to be that way. You could go a little bit crazy trying to figure out, “Am I fat adapted? Am I in ketosis?” If you’re wondering what it feels like to be fat adapted, definitely check out the video in the show notes of signs that you’re fat adapted.
And how is it different than being in ketosis? It’s kind of, it’s neither here nor there, really. You can be in the state of ketosis and not fully be fat adapted yet because your body hasn’t caught up and so that can take anywhere between five days to 14 days, really, in the average person to become fat adapted. Fat adapted I see as a metabolic state of awesomeness where you can burn any fuel really efficiently, whereas ketosis, I mean, you could get into a state of ketosis artificially by eating a ton of exogenous ketones, but your body’s not fat adapted, if that makes sense.
Next and last question is, if somebody is feeling sluggish on keto, what does that mean and how can they boost their energy levels? Again, you’ve come to the right place because today’s episode we’re going to be chatting all about the electrolyte balancing effect of bone broth and how to use electrolytes to your benefit so that you don’t feel sluggish on keto.
Keto flu is a real thing. It totally sucks. I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone. And if we are balancing out our electrolytes while we’re getting started with the keto diet, and even now, if I don’t check my electrolytes even after eating keto for three and a half years, I find that I can get a little case of keto flu. So just always be mindful of your electrolytes. If you’re feeling sluggish make sure that you are eating enough salt. Bone broth is a really great option. We talk about a lot of other options in today’s episode.
One thing that Justin mentioned in today’s episode that I want to clarify is that just because, and this is something I’ve just recently learned, just because you put a bone broth in the fridge and it doesn’t turn gelatinous, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have health properties. There’s actually been a couple of studies that have come out recently and a little bit of work that’s being done on this that may point to the fact that the gelatinous component of a broth may not dictate whether or not it’s good or not. This is made completely true if you have an Instant Pot and you have boiled those bones 24 hours, or even less, even four hours will do it. And then you put the bone broth in a container and you put it in the fridge and it doesn’t turn gelatinous, and you’re like, “What the heck?” It could just be because it’s been heated in a way, or there’s different types of bones and components that hasn’t pulled out the gelatin of the those bones because they didn’t have a lot. But it will still have the collagen. So just be mindful of that.
A really, really great way, though, to determine whether or not a bone broth, like a store-bought bone broth is good is usually to put it in the fridge. But I have had a couple of bone broths, like for example the Broya bone broths that we were chatting about last month for our Canadian listeners, great bone broth product. Won’t turn as gelatinous in the fridge as say, Kettle & Fire bone broth. But having chatted with them and talked about their process, it’s just a different process and creates a different product. So I will leave all that up to you, but without further ado, let’s cut over to this interview.
The Keto Diet Podcast, including show notes and links provides information in respect to healthy living, recipes, nutrition, and diet and is intended for informational purposes only. The information provided is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment, nor is it to be construed as such. We cannot guarantee that the information provided on The Keto Diet Podcast reflects the most up-to-date medical research. Information is provided without any representations or warranties of any kind. Please consult a qualified physician for medical advice and always seek the advice of a qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding your health and nutrition program.
Hey Justin, how’s it going today?
Justin Mares: Doing fantastically, how are you?
Leanne Vogel: I’m super awesome. For listeners that may not be familiar with your work, why don’t you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself.
Justin Mares: Sure. I’m the founder of Kettle & Fire. Kettle & Fire is the first shelf-stable bone broth company that uses all organic ingredients and 100% bones from 100% grass fed, grass finished cow.
Leanne Vogel: How did you get into that?
Justin Mares: That’s a great question. I used to work in tech. I had another company in the software space, and so we were selling software to software developers. So, kind of like a meta tech software startup. And after we got acquired I realized, I did some life reflection, and realized that I honestly did not care at all about selling software to software developers. And so did a … I looked at my life and decided what do I actually care about? Health and wellness has always been something I’ve been very into, and so as I was hanging out with CrossFit buddies and learning more about gut health and the gut/brain connection, I wanted to start incorporating more bone broth into my diet. And then as I looked around, no one was making a quality bone broth. That’s when my brother and I decided to start Kettle & Fire.
Leanne Vogel: Wow. So to go from tech to cooking bone broth, that’s amazing. When did you start your company?
Justin Mares: Very different and very not as sexy.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah. So true. When did you start Kettle & Fire?
Justin Mares: We started in August of 2015, so we’re just over two years old.
Leanne Vogel: Amazing. Entrepreneur to entrepreneur, it’s really difficult to do what you’re doing, so well done.
Justin Mares: Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: I’m sure you know that.
Justin Mares: Thank you. Yeah, I’m just glad that the whole bone broth thing is catching on. There was a large chunk of time where my mom had no idea what I was doing, people I would meet had no idea what bone broth was. It was just a lonely journey, but it’s getting better.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah, I remember when I first started blogging my parents didn’t understand. And when I quit my job my mom was terrified for me. She’s like, “This is not a good plan. You went to school, you need to be at a workplace.”
Justin Mares: Oh yeah.
Leanne Vogel: And when I started keto everyone thought I was crazy. But then I went to a show probably about a year ago and I said, “Oh, you know I’m eating keto, low carb.” And I didn’t even finish the whole elevator pitch of what keto was and people were like, “Oh yeah, keto.” So that’s how you know, okay, things are looking up.
Justin Mares: Yup, yup. It takes time. I heard my first stranger talking about bone broth on the street just a couple months ago and I was like, “All right, we’re getting there.”
Leanne Vogel: Yes!
Justin Mares: People are actually going to know what I’m doing. We’re on the way.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah, that’s so good. And for something like bone broth, that’s such a healing amazing piece to the diet that’s so many of us … Just, I don’t know. I know I knew about bone broth for quite some time, but it’s like the effort that it takes to make it …
Justin Mares: Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: … and find it and all of those things. So that’s why I really enjoy you guys because like we were saying before the recording, now that we’re living full time in the RV, as much as I would love to make my own bone broth, that’s just not a thing. I don’t have the space, I don’t have the time, and I also don’t have the energy. Not physical energy, but like power to fuel my Instant Pot for that long that it takes to make a good bone broth.
Justin Mares: Totally. And I also imagine your husband would not love the scent of meat bones just cooking for 24 hours in a very small, enclosed space.
Leanne Vogel: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Justin Mares: It’s not the most pleasant.
Leanne Vogel: It’s really not. More of my interview with Justin Mares after this message from one of our podcast partners.
By now, you probably know that bone broth is a mega super food in the keto and paleo communities. Everyone is making it and cashing in on the benefits that collagen and gelatin provide. You know, the reduction in inflammation, better digestion, improved immunity, reduction in wrinkles, beautiful skin quality, etc. But making bone broth takes time.
Kettle & Fire make bone broth that’s nonperishable, so that it can be shipped all over the US without refrigeration, which makes shipping less expensive, and you don’t have to spend 20 plus hours that are required to make really good, homemade bone broth. Listeners of the podcast receive 20% off Kettle & Fire chicken bone broth when you go to KettleandFire.com/ketopodcast to place your order. Unsure of the link? Simply check it out in the show notes of today’s episode to get all the details.
So, why don’t we start off first off because we wanted to focus really on fast tracking fat burning and how bone broth and electrolytes and even overcoming keto flu can help with that. So why don’t we start off by chatting about what keto flu is, and also do you eat keto yourself?
Justin Mares: Yeah. So I do cyclical keto. I generally will eat keto for, call it two to three months, and then cycle back into a paleo diet, and then back on the keto. Now that-
Leanne Vogel: How long are you paleo for until you cycle back?
Justin Mares: So generally, call it three to four months.
Leanne Vogel: Wow. Okay. I’ve never met anyone that does this.
Justin Mares: Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: I have so many questions for you.
Justin Mares: Happy to chat.
Leanne Vogel: Okay, so do you experience keto flu when you go from eating paleo for those couple of months to then going back to keto and what’s that like?
Justin Mares: Not really, to be totally honest. I mean, I think that there’s a couple days of maybe some slight sluggishness, but it’s not a very serious thing. I’ve been eating paleo probably, I would say mostly paleo since I was 22 or so. And so as part of that it’s just I would say I’m pretty fat adapted at this point and I eat a very, very clean diet even when I’m not on keto. And so I find it pretty easy, actually, to get back into ketosis. But this is also not the first time that I’ve done it, right? Like, keto flu is worse the first time and then it gets progressively easier every time you cycle back in, unfortunately for everyone who’s starting keto for the first time.
Leanne Vogel: So what was your first time keto like, if you can remember?
Justin Mares: Yeah, it was not great. But the first time I did it, actually, I decided to do an extended fast. So I hopped in and did a three day fast. And that was pretty tough because I think that that was the first time … I was actually not eating well, and that was one of the times I was definitely not being paleo compliant for about a month. And so I went from eating relatively poorly compared to my standards, to doing a fast and then going into keto and that was pretty rough. Very low energy levels. Had some headaches. Was just feeling bleh all the time. And that lasted for about … I got better on day three of the fast and then when I started eating keto after that I had another probably two to three days of just not feeling great.
Leanne Vogel: Were there any things that you did in those moments to overcome it, or like me, I didn’t … When I started keto nobody had really talked about keto flu and that this was a thing, so I started eating keto and then felt like garbage and was like, “What’s wrong with me?”
Justin Mares: Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: Were you in that camp of I don’t know what’s happening, I’ll just push through it?
Justin Mares: Yeah, I basically just decided, okay, I’m going to give this two weeks and see what happens. It probably won’t kill me in that time. It might suck for a little bit, and let’s just see how it goes. So, thankfully, it got far better after about a week and I was like, “Oh, this is actually pretty cool and I’m seeing the benefits that people are talking about. My blood markers are really good.” All of that. So that was a really good experience for me. But, yeah, to get out of keto flu I wish I had been more intentional about it. I just accepted that it was not ideal and then tried to have some bone broth and drink a lot of tea. Which, I don’t know that the tea helped that that much.
Leanne Vogel: If it had salt in it, then yes.
Justin Mares: Yeah, the tea definitely did not.
Leanne Vogel: Bummer. So those listening, if you are just starting with keto and you’re not really sure what’s happening. It’s been four days and you’re not feeling so great, that could be a form of keto flu. And I experienced it when I first got started, and like I said, I had no idea what was going on, so it actually lasted a couple of weeks until I really had to Google. Back then, in the day … In 2014 there wasn’t a lot of information about keto out there. You couldn’t just Google, “Why do I not feel good on a keto diet?” And it would come out with anything.
So, really, really dug deep, tried to figure it out and learnt that it’s usually because your electrolytes are off. And by balancing out electrolytes you can usually get over your keto flu pretty easily. In very, very rare cases sometimes it takes a little bit more to get through the keto flu. In fact, on my first book tour I met with a lady in Austin and she said that she experienced keto flu for six solid weeks.
Justin Mares: Wow.
Leanne Vogel: And she did the electrolyte thing, she did everything, and the only thing that helped was exogenous ketones. And that’s how I started researching exogenous ketones, finding out that a lot of people were experiencing the same things. So, if you find you are in keto flu for weeks and weeks and it’s not improving, you may have to go down that road. But usually it’s just a matter of bumping up your electrolytes. These are things like in whole food forms, bone broth, which is a big one because not only does bone broth have the electrolytes, but it also is a great carrier to deliver even more. So sometimes I’ll add a lot of salt to the bone broth and maybe blend it with some coconut oil, or even some bacon grease. That’s the best. Bacon grease with bone broth is-
Justin Mares: Haven’t tried that.
Leanne Vogel: What?! Okay, you have to. You have to. Blend it up with bacon grease and a little bit of salt, oh my gosh. It’s probably my favorite thing. Especially with your chicken mushroom one.
Justin Mares: Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: It is amazing.
Justin Mares: Oh, that sounds amazing.
Leanne Vogel: Try it. You heard it here first. And by doing, by focusing on more of the electrolyte boosting things like dark chocolate, leafy greens, avocado and just really focusing on your salt intake, it’s usually enough to get over the hump, or not even experience keto flu when you first get started.
So, why don’t we chat a little bit about bone broth, electrolytes. How does bone broth have electrolytes and why is it good to use it to boost our electrolytes?
Justin Mares: Sure. Yeah. So as you were saying, keto flu just, it’s often a case where you can fix that by adding in more electrolytes. So bone broth contains sodium, potassium and a lot of the electrolytes that your body needs to address the symptoms in keto flu that you mentioned.
So, bone broth has those because it basically … For those who don’t know what bone broth is, so bone broth is made by taking super high quality bones and then cooking them down over an extended cook period. We use 20 plus hours for our beef bone broth, 10 plus for our chicken bone broth. And basically as these bones break down, as the marrow seeps into the broth and some of the connective tissue that’s one the bones break down and seeps into the broth, you get a lot of the sodium, potassium and other minerals that actually makes up the bones that gets into the broth, and then gets into your body after you drink bone broth.
So, getting those electrolytes and those kind of basic minerals and basic nutrients into your system are what can really help, and has certainly helped a lot of people that we’ve talked to get over keto flu, or just feel better in a pretty rapid form. I’ve been really blown away by some of the customer stories that we’ve seen who have been supplementing with our bone broth.
Leanne Vogel: That’s awesome. And something that I, the question that I get a lot is why wouldn’t I just take an electrolyte powder? Do you want to cover that one?
Justin Mares: Sure, yeah. I mean, look, if that’s the only option that you have, then that’s fine. I just tend to subscribe to the theory that whole food sources of nutrition are always the best options from bio-availability standpoint, from a lot of dimensions. And the second piece is that if you’re trying to get over keto flu, one of the contributing factors to keto flu is the transition that your gut bacteria are going through as they go from becoming glucose adapted to fat adapted. So another thing that bone broth helps with is giving the gut the building blocks, collagen, gelatin, amino acids, things like this that your gut fauna need to rebuild and promote a healthy, thriving, fat adapted gut bacteria colony. And so it helps in multiple ways outside of just the straight up electrolytes.
I think that one of the issues I see a lot of times is people will say … People take a very reductionist view of nutrition, where they go, “Oh, so I need fat.” And so they then say, “I’m going to throw as much fat into my diet as I can.” And they ignore the quality, the type, all of these different things. And I think that that reductionist view of nutrition is what’s gotten us into a lot of issues in the past with food pyramids and treating all sources of carbohydrates, or fats, or proteins like they’re the same. It just doesn’t make sense to me. So I always think quality is a really important dimension that oftentimes people will ignore when they’re starting a new diet, going paleo, going keto, whatever it is.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah, completely. I totally agree with you. And something I see in my practice as well is people will be told, “I need potassium.” So instead of focusing on potassium rich foods they just take a supplement and they’re like, “Good.” But if they would just look at a whole food based approach to that, and a more holistic approach, finding something for example like bone broth, that has it in there, while also delivering a bunch of other things, you’re killing maybe 50 birds with one stone as opposed to constantly taking supplements. And that’s something that I’ve been massively guilty about. If anyone’s been following me for a while you know that at one point, I can’t remember the number, I think it was over 50 individual supplements that I was taking on a daily basis. I needed, you know those travel containers where you put your supplements in? I needed two whole travel containers to hold one strip of day for me.
Justin Mares: Wow.
Leanne Vogel: It was just insane.
Justin Mares: Going through the TSA must have been a total nightmare for you.
Leanne Vogel: You know what? It wasn’t. Never was. They just probably just thought I was a really sick individual. It’s like, “This girl needs all of these supplements.” Taking a look at your supplementation routine, even, and kind of trying to figure out if there are whole food based approaches to that so that you can remove some supplements. I’ll be the first one to say that the quality of our food is nowhere near the place where our body needs, so supplementation is required in some places. Like a really good probiotic, and a really good multi vitamin. But all these individual things that people are taking, that’s why I have gotten so big into bone broth lately is because it delivers so many of those things that I was taking in supplemental form.
And even to add variety to your collagen intake. A lot of our listeners supplement with collagen. And sometimes it can get boring always putting collagen in your coffee or your tea or I put them in my fat bombs. But just having that form of collagen in another way that’s more of a savory thing than a sweet thing. Because I find when you add collagen to stuff it’s always sweet, at least for me.
Justin Mares: Yeah, completely. And you know, just to clarify, I’m definitely not against supplementation. I think it makes a lot of sense for people. I’m just wary of the view that, “Oh, I need this specific nutrient in my diet that will fix everything and the best way to get the most of it is via a supplement.” I think that that approach has just failed and leads to a lot of people bouncing around and trying a bunch of different supplements and things and not really seeing any results and then they give up or quit or whatever and they’ve missed out on a chance to improve their lives and improve their health.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah, it’s really unfortunate. And something I also see that we’re all, many of us are missing the mark and I’ve done this as well, of thinking, okay, so bone broth. This sounds cool. I can do this. And they go to the grocery store and they go to the soup aisle and they just grab a bone broth or a stock thing and think that it’s the same quality. And I’ve done this with so many things over the years. Another example is you go to Whole Foods and you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to remove conventionally raised meat.” And you go up to the meat counter and you’re like, “Organic chicken breast, that’s what I need.”
But, I mean, all you’re really doing is paying for the word organic and it could still be raised not the way that you want it. It’s not free range. If you’re looking at grass fed, grass finished beef, that’s going to be a lot better than organic beef. That to me means nothing, but you’re paying a lot more money for these products that aren’t actually any better than the conventional stuff. So I’m sure that there’s a lot of stuff too with bone broth where there’s the good and the bad and the totally ugly. Can we talk about the differences of bone broth and what we’re looking for in quality?
Justin Mares: Yeah, absolutely. One of the most popular bone broths that you’ve probably seen and I talk to a lot of people that have made this mistake is the Pacific bone broth, for example, that you’ll probably see on the shelf. They are just an example of one of the many companies that are claiming that they have a bone broth, and yet they don’t use real bones in their product. You can take a look at their ingredient statement, bones are not on there. And that is because they’ll, instead … They’re trying to ride the bone broth trend while not creating a product that actually lives up to the bone broth promise.
So what a lot of companies will do is they will use a bone paste. They basically grind up a bunch of bones, have no connective tissue, no marrow in them. Effectively nothing of nutrient value. Grind it up, mix it with water, add some flavoring or maltodextrin or some of these other ingredients to give it some sort of color and maybe a tiny bit of body and then sell it as a bone broth. Now that is very different than taking bones from grass fed, grass finished pastured cattle that have been cooked down for 24 hours with organic ingredients, which is the way we make our stuff.
And one easy way to tell a bone broth quality is when you pop it in the fridge. If you leave it in there for 10 to 12 hours, the bone broth should firm up a little and just thicken and become much more firm, much less like the consistency of water that it was when you put it in there. And that is due to the high amounts of gelatin, collagen in the actual broth itself. Those proteins firm up and bind together when exposed to cold temperatures for a long period of time. And that is just something that you don’t see with a lot of the other commercially produced products that are calling themselves bone broth out there.
That’s why, actually, I started Kettle & Fire is because I wanted to buy a bone broth. I bought all of these other options and got them tested for collagen and gelatin and the like and there was effectively nothing in there. Very, very few nutrient benefits and just none of the good stuff that I was actually looking for.
Leanne Vogel: It sounds like if we are at the grocery store and we’re looking for a bone broth, making sure that the bone broth, like if we flip over the package and we’re looking at the ingredients and it says, “Bones,” win.
Justin Mares: Yes.
Leanne Vogel: That’s a big one. If it says maltodextrin, probably not a win.
Justin Mares: Yup. Exactly.
Leanne Vogel: Now, does grass fed, grass finished bones matter? Do we care about that?
Justin Mares: Oh yeah, so it definitely matters. I mean, in some ways it is one of the most important aspects to consider when choosing a beef bone broth, and that is because people look at grass fed, grass finished meat and say, “Okay, that’s better than conventionally raised meat.” Well, that’s often due to the lack of toxin load, omega-3, versus omega-6 ratios are much better. With bone broth what you’re doing is the connective tissue and the marrow of these animals are where a lot of the toxins end up. If an animal eats a super conventional diet full of a bunch of toxins or unhealthy things, then oftentimes, and you see this with humans too, those toxins, those impurities end up in the fats and the marrow of the creature. That’s just where a lot of these things make their way to.
So, if you are getting a bone broth, if it’s made from cattle that have not been grass fed, grass finished, or not raised organically, then you’re taking a chance that you’re going to be adding a lot of these impurities and a lot of these toxins into your system while trying to do something healthy for you, which is just not ideal.
Leanne Vogel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Completely. And what about the differences between stock and bone broth? What is the difference there?
Justin Mares: Yeah, so this is a hard one. Most people would say, “Oh, bone broth is just stock.” And if they are talking about homemade stock, or what a lot of chefs will refer to as stock, they’re actually correct. The issue, though, is that a lot of commercially available stocks, pretty much anything you can buy at the grocery store, doesn’t actually use bones and doesn’t use long cook times. So instead the average broth or stock at the grocery store will use really poor quality cuts of meat, poor cuts of, poor bone quality and throw it in a pressure cooker, cook it for two to three hours, maybe add some artificial flavoring or coloring and then call it a broth or a stock. That’s why these broth or stocks generally have very little flavor, very little richness, and definitely do not gel when you put them in the fridge.
That’s kind of the big difference is if you’re looking at a broth or a stock versus a bone broth from a commercial standpoint, a broth or a stock won’t use bones. Bone broth will. They’ll have much shorter cook times than a real bone broth, and they definitely won’t use grass fed, or any sort of apple cider vinegar, or acid that will help the bones break down to help the broth as nutrient dense as possible.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah, when I was making my own bone broth, if I forgot apple cider vinegar before I closed the lid I could always tell, the bones just wouldn’t be as broken down. And I was always so angry when that would happen because it’s like, shoot, I dealt with the smell and all the things and I forgot to add apple cider vinegar.
Justin Mares: Yup.
Leanne Vogel: That’s really important to add to your bone broth.
Justin Mares: Completely.
Leanne Vogel: More of my interview with Justin Mares after this message from one of our podcast partners.
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Keeping focused on fast tracking fat burning and how people can use bone broth to really optimize their ability to become fat burning machines, have you played around with exogenous ketones yourself? And do you feel like bone broth and exogenous ketones go really well together in boosting fat burning? Thoughts?
Justin Mares: Yeah, yeah. So let me caveat this by saying that I have not had fat burning as a goal for several years now, and so this is not something I’ve been focused on. But, that said, I have used exogenous ketones. I actually really like the brand that you recommend, I think, Perfect Keto.
Leanne Vogel: Yup.
Justin Mares: Yup. So I really like their stuff. And so I’ve used exogenous ketones and bone broth to skip the keto flu and also to ramp up my metabolism in general and help me switch into a fat adapted state much faster. So when I’m getting back into keto or have been eating poorly for a stint of time, which I wish I could say never happens. It’s definitely happened. I will definitely use the two in combination to ramp my system and get it back into a fat adapted mode much, much faster.
Leanne Vogel: Amazing. I do the same. I like the two, they work really, really well together. And it can be really helpful, too, I’ve seen a lot of people if they are doing longer term fasting. It’s not something I’m ready to play around with just with my hormones just yet. But people that are doing maybe 24, 48, even longer fasting, using bone broth with exogenous ketones throughout that experience, I’ve seen a lot of success here, there, so that can be fun to play around with as well.
Justin Mares: Yeah. So I did a fast earlier this year that was just bone broth. It was two cups of bone broth a day, a scoop of coconut oil and then exogenous ketones on days one and two and then a BCAA supplement. And did that for about three and a half days and it was way easier than straight water fasts that I’ve done in the past. For the most part I felt great and I experienced no muscle mass loss and definitely I don’t have a lot of weight to lose, but I definitely got much more cut and lost some weight that was hanging around.
Leanne Vogel: Amazing. Love it. So you have a lot of passionate people that follow Kettle & Fire and I’m sure you guys get a lot of great testimonials. I’d love to pick your brain of the sorts of things that you’ve heard from your customers. My first question, or our community’s first question is, sleep on keto. Have you found that bone broth or has somebody said that, “Drinking bone broth helps my sleep.” Have you noticed that at all?
Justin Mares: Yeah, so we have a bunch of customers, and I’ve seen the same thing. But, there are some studies that show glycine, which is amino acid, present and bone broth and gelatin are both really helpful as far as basically regulating your hormone system, improving your gut bacteria and making it easier and improving the quality of your sleep. So that’s really cool.
We see a lot of customers with, who have had gut or joint health issues who start adding bone broth to their lives and their way of eating and they see pretty drastic improvements in terms of their pain goes down, inflammation levels go down. Their digestive capacity and the way that they feel on a daily basis goes up.
And all of this, I think at least my theory, is that even if you look at someone that eats paleo, keto, either one of those, that eats a pretty healthy diet, oftentimes what people are missing from their diets are a lot of the amino acids and proteins that are found in bone broth, found in organ meats, found in bone marrow. But that people are just not consuming on a regular basis. And so I find that adding bone broth to your diet, or adding collagen, whatever it is, it’s one of the highest leverage things that many people can do for their health just because they are not getting these nutrients in their diet in any way, shape, or form, if you’re eating anything close to the standard American or Canadian diet.
Leanne Vogel: Or if you’re vegan, just putting it out there.
Justin Mares: Yes.
Leanne Vogel: I’m just putting it out there that if I were to go back to eating vegan, which, I don’t even know. You’d have to pay me like a bazillion, trillion, gazillion dollars. But I really feel like regardless if you’re vegan or not, you should probably eat bone broth. And I know it’s “Not vegan.” But vegan is just a word, just like keto. You make it your own. But, I mean, the vegan diet is completely devoid of the nutrients in bone broth. Completely.
Justin Mares: Exactly.
Leanne Vogel: It doesn’t exist.
Justin Mares: And we have some vegetarian and … I don’t know if we have any self-identified vegans that have emailed me yet, but we’ve definitely had some vegetarians, and people who have gone vegetarian or vegan for moral reasons who say that they’re okay with eating bone broth because no animal is basically killed to make a bone broth. In all cases we are taking bones, which were traditionally a waste product and are thrown away by a lot of the grass fed farms that we work with, we’re just buying those and then turning that into a source of nutrition. And so if you’re a vegan or vegetarian for moral reasons, bone broth is actually something that makes a lot of sense and gives you the health benefits without the moral problems that some individuals see with the meat industry …
Leanne Vogel: It’s like up cycling.
Justin Mares: … and animals. Yeah.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah.
Justin Mares: Exactly.
Leanne Vogel: You’re taking a waste product and making it awesome.
Justin Mares: Exactly. Although, I don’t love describing it like that just because …
Leanne Vogel: It’s a waste product.
Justin Mares: this is our waste products.
Leanne Vogel: But if you’re really into saving the environment, things like that, it might be a really big deal for you. You never know.
Justin Mares: Totally.
Leanne Vogel: Yeah. Not a waste product. I take that back.
Okay, so you mentioned a couple of things about the gut and I’ve seen personally it can be really helpful for leaky gut, people with food intolerances, anyone that has been told that they are high oxalate, it can help with that. If you’ve been told that you need to remove lectins from your diet because your gut is reacting, it can help with that. So, let’s chat a little bit about how to use bone broth because I know that when I first said, “Okay, I’m going to have more bone broth in my life.” I felt like if I didn’t have a mug of bone broth in the morning that I couldn’t really incorporate it any other way. And when I realized that I could start cooking with it, or adding it to certain things it became a lot easier. What’s your favorite way to incorporate bone broth into your day?
Justin Mares: Yeah, so I like to drink a mug or two of it in the afternoon. Generally I’ll do two things with it. I’ll either blend in some ghee, although I now have to try the bacon grease.
Leanne Vogel: Bacon grease.
Justin Mares: I blend in ghee, or I have lately been adding some olive oil and some lemon juice to our mushroom chicken bone broth and having a mug of that in the afternoon. And it’s just incredible. Such a good reset point for me and so I’ll generally do that. Do a mug in the afternoon and then probably three or four times a week, mostly on days that I’ve worked out, I will have a cup in the evening, generally an hour or two before going to bed.
Leanne Vogel: Amazing. And if anyone is listening and you want to go a little crazy you could also add turmeric, ginger, garlic, like some healing spices if you’re focused on that. I’ve been really digging cooking with it, making a lot of soups. Now that we’re in the desert, though, it’s really hot here, so making soup is just not ideal. And even drinking bone broth, anyone that is living in a hotter climate where heating up a thing of bone broth and drinking it is just out of the question, or I’ve met a lot of people that don’t actually like hot drinks. I didn’t know that was a thing, but these humans exist. So cooking with bone broth can be really helpful.
Some of my favorites is cauliflower rice cooked with bone broth and then adding some sort of shredded meat or ground meat. If you are making any sorts of sauces, like any tomato based sauces or things like that, I’ve been adding that. Or even gravy. I’ve been cooking a lot of meats in my Instant Pot because it’s really the only tool that I have now. And when the meat gets all brown and perfect, like kind of crunchy, I take out the meat, I put in the bone broth, whisk it around. Add just a touch of arrowroot powder, just a little bit to thicken it, and then I have gravy. And hey, awesome and so easy. So those can be some ways if you’re a little bit concerned of just drinking bone broth.
Justin Mares: Yeah, that sounds incredible.
Leanne Vogel: And you guys have put together a pretty sweet coupon code offer for Healthful Pursuit and podcast listeners. I think it’s like 20% off if you go to KettleandFire.com/ketopodcast. So, everyone should definitely take advantage of that now because that’s an awesome discount on Kettle & Fire.
So thanks so much for putting that together, Justin. And, yeah, thanks for coming on the show today.
Justin Mares: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.
Leanne Vogel: And where can people find more from you?
Justin Mares: Yeah, so they can check us out, KettleandFire.com, K-E-T-T-L-E-A-N-D-F-I-R-E.com. Or, we’re on Instagram @KettleandFire. Would love to hear from anyone that got something from this podcast.
Leanne Vogel: Cool. And the full transcript and show notes from today’s episode can be found at HealthfulPursuit.com/podcast/e67. The transcript is added to the post about three to five days following the initial air date of this episode. And thanks again for coming on the show today, Justin. I hope that we shared a lot of information that people didn’t know before and that you guys are able to use bone broth in a way that feels right for you. And it’s just better to know that these things exist so that you can make choices for yourself.
Justin Mares: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on.
Leanne Vogel: That does it for another episode of The Keto Diet Podcast. Thanks for listening in. You can follow me on Instagram by searching Healthful Pursuit where you’ll find daily keto eats and other fun things. Check out all of my keto supportive programs, bundles, guides and other cool things over at HealthfulPursuit.com/shop. I’ll see you next Sunday. Bye.