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Weight LossProtein Intake to Enhance Body Composition with Vanessa Spina
September 24, 2024 By
Leanne Vogel
February 4, 2025
Transcript
Angelo Keely
She went to get her scan done and she had lost like a huge amount of body fat. A huge amount of fat mass. Because even if you lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, you probably won’t even notice much difference on the scale. She had lost huge amount of fat loss. She had put on like nine pounds of muscle.
Leanne Vogel
What?
Angelo Keely
Yeah, it was insane because when you’re like a beginner, I, I put on eight pounds of muscle in the first year of lean mass, I should say, because that isn’t all, you know, muscle, but lean mass. She had put on lean mass. Nine pounds of lean mass. She was thrilled. Right? But so many people if you’re just relying on the scale, unfortunately we don’t have great body scanning technology at home.
Leanne Vogel
Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. I am so thrilled to have you here. This is a great one. If you’ve been following me for quite some time and listening to the podcast, you are not a stranger to to Vanessa Spina. She’s been on the show quite a few times and I was reminded of her work quite recently and reached out and I was like, vanessa, we haven’t chatted in so long, you should come back on the podcast. And she so graciously agreed.
Leanne Vogel
I am so pumped to share this recording with you. We chat about optimizing mitochondrial health. The conversation was emphasized on why optimized mitochondrial health is crucial for overall well being, health span, lifespan, highlighting the risk of lethargy and oxidative damage. We talk about the key strategies for supporting mitochondria, including muscle building and the right types of fats. We also chat about the protein requirements and lean mask and why it’s so important to eat enough protein. We talk about the outdated RDI for protein, the importance of maintaining lean muscle mass and so much more. We also touch a little bit about peptides. I’ve been taking Summerlin for quite some time and have been really happy with the results and it was interesting to get Vanessa’s take on it Now, Vanessa is a sports nutrition specialist.
Leanne Vogel
She’s the best selling author of Keto Essentials. She’s an international speaker and host of the wildly popular Optimal Protein podcast. Vanessa founded ketogenic girl in 2015 with an online audience of over half a million. Vanessa has created three innovative wellness products. The Tone device, a breath ketone analyzer which measures acetone, the ketone detected in the breath. The second is a brand new red light therapy line called Tone, Lux or Lux. The third is Tone Protein, a protein powder that is scientifically formulated to initiate muscle protein synthesis in every serving. Oh I just love Vanessa and we agree on so much when it comes to protein.
Leanne Vogel
If you’re having such a difficult time hitting your protein goals, it’s something that I really struggled with when I was getting started and understanding how much protein to eat, what that looked like, I’ve now like totally aced it. It is not a challenge for me to hit protein, but I’ve kept up with this one strategy especially in my pre and post workout game and that is Kion Aminos. If you are listening to today’s conversation and you’re like I don’t even know how to get enough protein, a great strategy is to incorporate the Kion aminos. You can go to get kion.comketo learn more they have a 60 day money back guarantee. The first time you try the aminos they don’t taste great, but I swear to you, the second, third, fourth, fifth they just taste amazing. I have this in my water bottle at every workout session and I am just so in love. Okay, if after today’s episode you’re like I didn’t know about Vanessa. I love her.
Leanne Vogel
I want to learn more. You can go to ketogenic girl.com she also has her tone protein and tone collagen over@toneprotein.com and of course her optimal protein podcast. Let’s cut over to our time with Vanessa. Hey, my name is Leanne and I’m fascinated with helping women navigate how to eat, move and care for their bodies. This has taken me on a journey from vegan keto high protein to everything in between. I’m a small town holistic nutritionist turned three time international bestselling author turned functional medicine practitioner practitioner offering telemedicine services around the globe to women looking to better their health and stop second guessing themselves. I’m here to teach you how to wade through the wellness noise to get to the good stuff that’ll help you achieve your goals. Whether you’re seeking relief from chronic ailments, striving for peak performance, or simply eager to live a more vibrant life, this podcast is your go to resource for actionable advice and inspiration.
Leanne Vogel
Together we’ll uncover the interconnectedness of nutrition, movement, sleep, stress management and mindset, empowering you to make informed choices that support your unique health journey. Think of it as quality time with your bestie mixed with a little med school so you’re empowered at your next doctor visit. Get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn about your body and how to care for it healthfully. Join me as we embrace vitality, reclaim our innate potential, and discover what it truly means to pursue healthfulness. Hey, Vanessa, how’s it going? Hi.
Angelo Keely
It’s so great to see you, Leanne. I feel like it’s been ages.
Leanne Vogel
Like, ages, ages. Kevin, my husband, went to that paleo restaurant in Austin that we ate at, Oodles and Oodles of years ago. And I don’t even know when that was, but it brought back so many memories. And he was sending pictures, and I was like, this feels like decades.
Angelo Keely
That was such a great place. And I was just with my cousin having lunch, and I was also reminiscing with her. I’m like, you had your, like, super. Was it almost like, right. Bright red hair. And we walked in there, and it was like, peak keto. Peak, like ketocon. And everyone was like, oh, my God, Leanne Vogel is, like, at our restaurants.
Angelo Keely
And, like, people were just, like, in awe. And it was so much fun just to, like, get in the car and drive around with you two. And, yeah, I just. I had so much fun. I remember, like, that was where we first got to meet in person, was at that. Yes. And we both had, like, we’d talked just virtually before then. So it was.
Angelo Keely
It was really fun and exciting to meet you there.
Leanne Vogel
It’s not every day that you get to connect with the individuals that, I mean, you’ve worked with for years and in the same space. And so it’s just so cool to meet someone in real life, you know, so you have that. You have that context. Okay, so it’s been a hot minute since we’ve chatted. What are the things that are lighting you up right now? What are you super passionate about? Like, tell us more about. About you before we get into today’s topics.
Angelo Keely
Yeah, I mean, in the last several years, I. I went back to school. I think we’ve. We talked since then. I went back to school to study biomedical science because I wanted to deepen my knowledge of nutrition, put biochemistry level, and understand how to read and interpret studies for myself. And that’s been really great with podcasting, which is, I would say, like, the main thing that I do now is doing the Optimal Protein podcast and really being able to go deeper in conversations with people, understanding the biochemical pathways. And that’s been, I think, just what lights me up the most is really, like, the podcast. Incredible people I get to connect with each week.
Angelo Keely
And I’m really excited just about where we are with scientific research now that I am able to, you know, really read it, comprehend it, follow it. I’m so excited about where we are right now and what we’ve been learning about like mitochondria muscle, you know, how to really optimize our body composition, our metabolic health and all this stuff. So these topics I think are super exciting and super exciting time to be in this space and I feel so happy that I get to do this every day. And I had a couple babies since, you know, we last caught up. So that’s also been a huge part of my life now. And it’s been really fun, you know, just having being on this like motherhood journey, something I didn’t know that I would love. I was scared that I wouldn’t like it. I remember we were talking about that I was scared to have kids and now I’m like, this is the best thing ever.
Angelo Keely
I don’t know why I waited or why I was scared, but it’s amazing. And I have, we have a little boy, Luca, who’s two and a six month old, Damien. I had him in December. And we’re just like feel like we’re living life to the fullest, like with them. It’s just amazing. And doing little adventures around Europe, traveling together, it’s really been blissful.
Leanne Vogel
That is awesome. I do remember that conversation. I feel like many of my friends have said, like, I am terrified. I don’t think that this is the right call. And then I chat with them a couple of months later, like maybe, maybe a year later, and they’re like this, why did I wait? Why did I wait to do this? This is fantastic. I love children. I’m so happy for you. That is awesome.
Leanne Vogel
So when you were doing like full blown keto, it wasn’t always about protein, right? Like, were you always prioritizing protein or when did that kind of transition happen? And why, what was, what was the thought process from like emphasizing fat to hold on a minute, I’m deprioritizing protein. What was that transition like?
Angelo Keely
Yes, that’s really, really interesting. It was such a huge turning point for me because I had been doing keto at the time for about four years. I had seen improvements, you know, in terms of my metabolic health. I had seen some improvements on my body composition. Like I was like 38% body fat. I had got down to like 34%, but that still wasn’t where I wanted to be. I wanted to be, you know, much leaner. So I was still kind of experimenting with it, playing and reading, starting to really read research.
Angelo Keely
That’s kind of like right When I finished doing school, so I started a carnivore doing a carnivore month, like just to try it out. And I remember like posting about it and everyone was like, don’t do it, these will explode. Like you’re gonna die from gluconeogenesis. And all the things I, you know, thought too. But I was like, ah, let’s just do it. Because I love trying different things and you always learn from whatever. So I started doing it. We were in Denver and the first thing I noticed, although like food was kind of boring because it was just like just animal food, like it was got very, very boring, is that I was suddenly so full after eating that I could walk away from like a plate with still like half full plate.
Angelo Keely
Like I could just be like, I don’t want anymore and I don’t want to think about food for the next like five, six hours. And that had never happened to me before except at Thanksgiving, which is the only other time I overate protein. So I started really getting into this research done by Drs. Robinheimer and Simpson out of Australia. And they came up with this concept of protein leverage. And this is what really changed everything for me. It was understanding that they had studied first insect models, then animal models and then humans. And they found that everyone has this protein stat.
Angelo Keely
And we’re basically every day, you know, we’re seeking protein, we have to get protein because we can’t make, you know, nine essential amino acids. And we will keep eating and overeat food and overeat on energy calories just so that our bodies can ensure that they get that protein. So like wait, if I switch it around, I prioritize protein, then I’m not going to overeat on the energy macros. And it suddenly crystallized everything for me and I realized that this is what I had been missing. I had been plant based for like 17 years right before I started keto. So I definitely under 8 protein for a super long time. And I started noticing, wow, my body const composition was dramatically changing. So within two years of doing a higher protein modified ketogenic diet, my body composition got down.
Angelo Keely
I got to 21 body fat which was athletic category and I was not working out. So I was studying a lot, like I was sitting a lot, I just barely was having any time to do exercise. So I was like, this is amazing. It makes me full. I feel so satisfied. I have tons of energy and my body composition is finally where I want it to be. And that’s this what I call like effortless. Leanness.
Angelo Keely
Now that I don’t have to work at it anymore, I always wondered, how do all these lean people around me just make it work? And they’re just like, eating and they’re going about life and they’re not like counting calories, they’re not worrying about their macros or just like, you know, they’re just living, existing. They’re able to walk away from a plate of food is protein. Like, if you like me under eat protein, you will always want to eat more fat and carb. So that was like the biggest shift. And then finally I got into some of the research done by Dr. Eric Kossoff, and he created this like modified ketogenic approach where he found it was much more sustainable for people to do. You could still get some level of ketosis, which I still like. I didn’t want to give up magical ketones because I still love them.
Angelo Keely
If you do this modified ketogenic diet. And then there’s also research showing if you’re an athlete or you’re athletic. I’m not considering myself an athlete, but I do athletic things. I do work out most days of the week that a lot of the you can get away with a little bit higher protein because that protein that you eat then gets channeled to your muscle tissue and to other enzyme synthesis and other synthesis of things that your body needs instead of just going towards anaplerosis and basically gluconeogenesis. So that’s. That was. That was the turning point and I really never looked back. And since then, you know, the podcast became the optimal protein podcast, and all my work really started focusing on the science behind a protein and optimal protein intake and what that is.
Angelo Keely
Exactly. Not too much protein either. Not too little. There’s like this optimal amount that I’m really trying to seek out what that is. And, you know, it’s just been so powerful. Such a game changer in my life.
Leanne Vogel
That is awesome. And I went through a very similar experience quite recently when I started working out and wasn’t gaining muscle and was like, hold on a minute. What if I switch up my macros big time and just eat a significant amount of protein? And that has made the biggest shift in my performance. And a lot of people will say, carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs. Performance, not. No. Nope. I’ve seen the most successful with increasing the protein.
Leanne Vogel
Now, because we’re having this protein conversation, the RDI piece probably needs to play a role in the conversation, probably at this point, because you’re saying not too much, not too little. Just write when we’re talking numbers or percentages or grams, like what are you seeing on average of women eating in protein? Where should we be? Where should we not be? Can we kind of go into the weeds on that one a little bit more?
Angelo Keely
Yes. I love this question. I’ve gotten to interview some of the world’s top experts on protein amino acid scientists. People spend their whole career studying this exact question. And the work done by Dr. Stu Phillips, actually Canadian, fellow Canadian at McMaster’s University, is what I usually rely on. So they found that an optimal intake for a sedentary person should not really be where the RDI is, as you mentioned, which is around 0.8 grams per kilogram per day for this. This number came about when they were trying to figure out what during wartime, what the minimum amount was.
Angelo Keely
The bare minimum amount of protein to avoid disease, basically in death. So it’s really not optimal. It’s the minimum. A more optimal intake for a sedentary individual looks more like 1.2 grams per kilogram per day. If you don’t move a lot in your day. And then once you get into a little bit more activity, you’re looking at 1.6 grams up to 2.2 for athletes. So that’s more defined as like doing four to five resistance training workouts per week up to like, you know, when people are doing like 2A days in the gym kind of thing. And you kind of have to find, I think from there your sweet spot.
Angelo Keely
But if you were to translate that into pounds, that’s about one gram per pound. And that’s, you can either do it based on your optimal body weight, if that’s where you’re at, or that’s where you want to be, or you can do it based on your current body weight if you, if you are close to what you know your optimal weight would be. But your optimal weight might actually be different than what you think it is because when you put on more muscle, you know, you tend to weigh a little bit more, but your body composition is better because you have a better fat mass to lean mass ratio. So like I always thought my whole life, I don’t know why I think I got stuck on this number when I was a teenager of like 125 was like 1 25, 125. Like I gotta be at 1 25. And that doesn’t really make sense for me based on my height and if I want to have a more athletic build, 1:45 is way more appropriate for me in terms of Body composition and my height even up to like 1:65, if I was like someone who was, you know, competing athletically or something, stepping on stage. So I’m much happier like with that number. It’s much more achievable.
Angelo Keely
It’s something that I can actually attain and be at my optimal health as well. Because you’re. When you’re in that optimal amount of leanness or the optimal sort of amount of leanness for your body, you tend to also be at your healthiest, which is really what it’s all about is a metabolic health. At the end of the day you also look better, but it’s really a reflection of what’s going on inside. Right.
Leanne Vogel
Looking better, feeling better, actually sleeping, managing cravings, like all the things that just impact you on a day to day basis. Completely. Yeah. It’s so good that you mentioned that too because I’m 510 and when I started off, you know, two years ago, my mom was diagnosed with Parkinson’s. I realized I need to get moving and grooving. Like I. If my family is going to have these neurodegenerative issues which have kind of gone through the generations, I need to have more muscle on my body. And so when I started that journey, I was around 170 pounds.
Leanne Vogel
And like I was pretty, it’s a little bit flubby, like there was some definite flub there. And so by working out I got down to I think 142. And now I’m back almost, almost at my beginning weight. But my body composition is crazy different. Like so different. And so I’m glad that you touched on that of like 170 pounds or 150 pounds or whatever that quote unquote goal weight is. You can look completely different within that space depending on your body composition. And so I’m glad that you touched on the fact that the numbers, though they are a helpful tool, might not be the be all end all to how your body looks and feels and functions with more muscle on it, is what I’m hearing you say.
Angelo Keely
Yes. And the thing that happens so often, I find is women that I’ve worked with who will go on this higher protein journey. Like I had one in particular, this happened several times actually. But there was one case in particular that the person, the woman actually she had started a high protein protocol and she was doing, feeling great on it. She went to go get a body scan, which is what I recommend to rely on more than the scale. The scale, like you said, it can provide guidance on where you’re trending you want to know what your body fat percentage is, how much lean mass you have. So she went to get a new body scan done and before she went, she had already gained, I think like seven pounds. And she was about to throw in the towel.
Angelo Keely
She’s like, this is not working for me. I’m just gaining weight. Like, I’ve been feeling better, but I can’t do this if like, you know, the number keeps going up. So she went to get her scan done and she had lost like a huge amount of body fat, a huge amount of fat mass. Because even if you lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, you probably won’t even notice much difference on the scale. She had lost huge amount of fat loss. She had put on like nine pounds of muscle.
Leanne Vogel
What?
Angelo Keely
Yeah, it was insane because when you’re like a beginner, I put on eight pounds of muscle in the first year of lean mass, I should say, because that isn’t all, you know, muscle, but lean mass. She had put on lean mass. Nine pounds of lean mass. She was thrilled. Right? But so many people, if you’re just relying on the scale, unfortunately we don’t have great body scanning technology at home. Like those bio impedance, you know, they can give you an idea. But you know, if you’re, if this is something you’re doing, you definitely want to get like a body scan done once a year or something because it, it could really throw you off to see the number on the scale going up and then, you know, not realize that it’s because you’re getting fitter.
Leanne Vogel
And even the number on the scale going down might not be ideal. Like, I work with a lot of clients now on just macro coaching and assisting them with figuring out what those numbers are for them. And oftentimes it’s interesting when they’re not seeing the scale go down intuitively, they drop protein and they start to see the scale go down and then they say, okay, well if I eat less protein, I actually lose weight. What do you think is happening there? Like, you’re, you’re losing muscle mass, which, yes, the scale is going down, but this is going to wreck your metabolism long term. Like, it goes against every conversation that we’re having here today of like, not necessarily do you want that number to go down if it means that you’re dropping your protein in intake? Right?
Angelo Keely
Yeah. The average loss when people lose weight on caloric, on diets where they don’t optimize protein or they don’t do high protein, you can lose as, as much as 60% lean mass and only 40% fat mass. And that’s a cycle I was definitely in for years. Like when I was trying every different diet and I was in my 20s, like, I would always end up in that cycle. I would lose 10 pounds, you know, probably like 6 pounds of lean mass, like 4 pounds of fat. Then I would go off it. I would gain weight back. And over time, that’s how I got to almost 40% body fat, just from doing diet after diet after diet and not ever prioritizing protein like I never did on any of those diets.
Angelo Keely
And we’re seeing that now with people who are doing, you know, the peptides and GLP1 agonists that a lot of the fat. A lot of the studies where they measure body composition, they’re seeing similar rates because those people, a lot of the people who are going on peptides are people who tend to not have this knowledge about optimizing their protein intake and doing resistance training. So they’re also getting like, similar results, are getting, like, rapid results. But like you said, you could end up worse off than where you started.
Leanne Vogel
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Leanne Vogel
And I’ve used that quite a few times for clients and I’ve seen like good success with that and that being kind of that sweet spot. Have you seen that as well?
Angelo Keely
Yeah, I tend to say go for your 1 gram per pound of your optimal body weight if you’re on a fat loss journey. So that, you know. But like you said, we were just talking about sometimes you don’t know what that is. Right. So I love the height thing.
Leanne Vogel
I think it works out to be that optimal weight. It’s, it’s a really fun little trick. Okay, peptides. So we have GLP1, which I agree with you. I think that there are very small circumstances where maybe, perhaps it could be useful in conjunction with a ton of therapy and working with somebody truly on what are the drivers to you eating and your eating tendencies and all of those things. But the peptides conversation. I’m going to have somebody on the show soon about peptides because I’ve actually started cimarelin and I’ve been on it for quite some time increasing growth hormone and I’ve been really excited about the results that I’m seeing. So are you playing around with peptides at all or are you just kind of focused on the GLP1 and it not being the best option?
Angelo Keely
I think there’s a lot of potential with peptides in general, like as a category, just the GLP1 agonist. I tend to think protein is nature’s like ozempic or wegovy or whatever. You’re taking something that is, you know, mimicking what the body does when you eat protein. It’s just that it has a much longer half life, so it lasts longer. But I personally don’t think I would need to take anything like that. Well, first of all, I wouldn’t because I’m breastfeeding. So I wouldn’t want anything to interfere with like those satiety signals or hunger signals right now. But on the other side of it, I just feel that I have such a connection now with my intuitive sense of eating with protein.
Angelo Keely
That I wouldn’t want, I wouldn’t even need anything to like, you know.
Leanne Vogel
Boost it.
Angelo Keely
Yeah, to boost it. But I’m, I know like peptides are a huge, you know, new industry and there’s, they do so many different things. So like I’m so them at all. I just think that if people are on them, especially GLP1 agonists, they want to make sure to optimize protein intake, which might even be hard to do if you feel full all the time.
Leanne Vogel
Yeah.
Angelo Keely
You know, and do some resistance training. It’s like same thing that I would recommend for someone like fasting or something like that to just make sure that muscle protein synthesis signal is still happening. But yeah, I don’t, I haven’t like played around with any of the other peptides, so I’m not familiar with the one that you mentioned either.
Leanne Vogel
Oh, it’s fun, it’s fun. I’m starting to stack them and having like probably too much fun with some of them. But you have to understand it’s sort of like not one peptide. It’s not like when you take a medication where it claims to just do one thing. Peptides are going to act on at least a handful, if not thousands of different processes in the body. And so you really have to understand what the impacts are because it can be substantial if you’re not on the correct one or you’re doing too much. And so I’m sure I’ll learn over time. It’s a little bit hardcore, you know, taking a needle to your subcutaneous fat and injecting yourself.
Leanne Vogel
But like, I’m here for it. I’m here for it. Okay, so up until this point we’ve talked, chatted a little bit about lean mass. Can we just talk about one of the benefits? Like why do we even care about this lean mass? We chatted a little bit about metabolism and its impact, but when it comes to this conversation of making sure that we’re eating enough protein and muscle protein synthesis, why do we care about this lean mass?
Angelo Keely
Yeah, I mean, I personally think that all of the modern non infectious chronic disease that we see today really comes back to a lack of metabolic fitness. And we have research showing that, you know, first we saw 88%, even 90% of Americans are not metabolically fit. So if you start to understand the root cause of where metabolic dysregulation comes, it really starts at the fat cell. And you know, we hear a lot about insulin resistance. When your fat cells become resistant to insulin and they become overfull with Energy and that can be from carbohydrates. Usually it comes from like ultra processed foods. People consuming too much energy can also come from too much fat as well. Like just energy toxicity.
Angelo Keely
You’re having too much energy, not enough movement is usually what’s happening. And fat cells get over filled and overloaded and those fat cells start to leak and secrete these abnormal proteins which then causes low grade inflammation. And that really is like this cascade effect that eventually turns into insulin resistance, like full blown insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, and also is a risk factor for like all the neurodegenerative diseases that you mentioned. It’s also a risk factor for even, you know, cardiometabolic diseases, maybe even cancer. We’re seeing, you know, just too much growth from too much energy. It also affects our mitochondria because our mitochondria are very sensitive. You know, there are little energy factories. They make all our ATP energy for us in our cells and at.
Angelo Keely
For mitochondria to function well, you need to have a constant flow of electrons moving through the electron transport chain, which is in the inner membrane of the mitochondria. But if you have too much energy coming in and you get this sort of like backlog of electrons in there that causes a lot of free radical damage, like a huge amount, and also damages the mitochondria themselves. And mitochondrial damage leads to people feeling lethargic, you know, not being able to have energy for your day because of mitochondria making your energy for you. And they lead to a lot of other diseases. Like a lot of diseases stem from how healthy your mitochondria are. But it also affects, like I said, your energy levels and your overall health. So when you build muscle, you build more lean mass. By prioritizing protein and doing resistance training and being active, you’re building more mitochondria like your muscle are.
Angelo Keely
Your muscle tissue is some of the most mitochondrial lead dense tissue in the body. So you are able to boost your mitochondrial function, your body’s ability to maintain and repair them. You know, you lower oxidative damage by like depending on how you shift your diet and you shift your macros, which is another conversation, another topic in this conversation. But having more muscle just means that you have more energy disposal. So you know, even if you are consuming more energy in fat and carbs, you’re able to dispose of it. Like your muscle is your best tissue for energy disposal at the end of the day. So the more lean tissue you have, the more able you are to handle that energy that comes in you’re able to take up glucose, take up fats into your tissues and you know, burn it for energy as opposed to your body, you know, your fat cells getting overfilled and that leading to, you know, those, those issues that we mentioned, that low grade inflammation triggering the immune system which we’re seeing. It’s just this explosion like this metabolic ticking time bomb.
Angelo Keely
It seems like in the west because people are either fully metabolically dysregulated or they’re on their way there for the most part in our society. So we have to make some big changes in order to avoid that happening.
Leanne Vogel
So what I’m hearing you say is mitochondria are absolutely essential. They are really important for our overall health, health span, lifespan. When they’re down regulated, we’re going to deal with lethargy, it’s going to cause oxidative damage. And how we build up the mitochondria has to do with muscle building. Like the more muscle you have, the more mitochondria you’re going to have. Are there other. You mentioned diet and maybe we’ll like circle back to that when it comes to like macros because we talked about protein and we’ll talk about that in a sec. But are there other ways to support the mitochondria? You mentioned muscle building.
Leanne Vogel
Anything else that we should be thinking of when it comes to avoiding disease and focusing on mitochondrial health?
Angelo Keely
Yes. So you summarize it perfectly. At the end of our lives, most of us only have about 30% of our mitochondria left. And of those mitochondria, they’re putting out like a fraction of the output of energy that they could when we’re young. And the only time that they’ve seen this not happen is actually in athletes. Like when they biopsy tissue of older athletes, they tend to still have and maintain older mitochondria. So movement really is the biggest piece. I would say the most important thing after that is to not overeat on energy calories.
Angelo Keely
So not to not overeat on carbs, not overeat on fats, and that’s really going to help your mitochondria to function well. And avoiding ultra processed foods like both carbohydrate and fat is going to really, really help your mitochondria. Another way to really boost them, you know, that you, you can look into if you’re interested, is getting into ketosis. You know, ketones have signaling properties that actually signal the mitochondria to uncouple so they uncouple heat Production from energy production. And that makes them more able to take on the same, like to take on greater loads of energy. So you’re basically like increasing the horsepower of your mitochondria by uncoupling them into ketosis, whether that’s like through your macros and doing a lower carb approach, whether it’s through practicing some intermittent fasting or even just from movement, like there’s tons of research that athletes get into ketosis just from moving. And you can also practice like a higher protein, low carb slash keto approach. And you can also, you know, get into ketosis pretty well.
Angelo Keely
So that definitely can help. It also creates less oxidative stress on the mitochondria because fat per gram generates so much more ATP. So like one molecule of glucose generates about 38 units of ATP, whereas one gram of fat generates over 100. So you’re much more fuel efficient. And you don’t have to, you don’t have to damage your mitochondria as much. And your mitochondria get damaged when you make energy. It’s just part of like running the machinery. Just like a car over time, like its parts will get gunk built up on them and will start to deteriorate.
Angelo Keely
You have to replace the parts, you know. So if you lower that load on the mitochondria by either uncoupling them or changing the macros to having, you know, healthy fats as this one source of energy, whether from your diet or from your body, and you do that by consuming less processed, you know, high glycemic carbohydrate, my other few things. So red light therapy is amazing for the mitochondria with, you know, you can get red light naturally from the sun. You can also get it concentrated in red light therapy panels. And the red light activates this chromivore on the electron transport chain. So really help support your mitochondrial health. And even if you just shine it on one part of your body, like say you’re using it for your face to boost collagen and elastin, you’re also getting systemic benefits because you have cell free mitochondria that circulate throughout your body. And so you’re getting benefits and boosting your mitochondria basically all over your body from doing that.
Angelo Keely
Another really interesting therapy is cold exposure. Whether you’re doing like cold plunging or just exposing yourself to the cold more, that also really helps because it activates brown fat. And your brown fat is fat tissue that has more mitochondria in it, which we tend to be born with more of that, and then we lose it over time because we don’t get cold. Like, our humans are just always trying to get comfortable, optimal come, you know, which is like, one of the worst things we can do for our mitochondria is always being at like a perfect temperature because you’re never getting any exposure to the cold. So you end up losing your brown fat. But they’ve done studies where people have this condition in the brain where their adrenaline is constantly being stimulated and they have brown fat all over their bodies. So that’s part of, like, what happens, you know, when you cold plunge or when you’re exposed to cold. You have, you know, some adrenaline circulating and that stimulates the brown fat.
Angelo Keely
Rest and recovery is really, really huge. You know, we talked about working out, but also rest and recovery, because when you do the exercise, you stimulate the tissue to build more mitochondria. But it’s in the rest and recovery and nourishing yourself well that you actually build it. And really interestingly, there are certain foods that can also support the mitochondria. So any food with mcts in it, medium chain triglycerides, so like goat cheese, goat milk, MCT oil, or MCT oil powder, which is also great for Alzheimer’s and neurodegenerative issues, either prevention or even treatment. Things like vitamin C, dark chocolate. There’s something called methylene blue, which a lot of people are talking about and using. I’m still watching and seeing what’s happening.
Leanne Vogel
Yeah. Oh, I’ve done the methylene blue situation.
Angelo Keely
Yeah. Yeah. There’s really interesting things like that that can turmeric also, that can support the mitochondria. So. And then the last thing I think is like just light exposure and grounding, you know, having your feet make contact with the earth. The earth has a negative charge, gets rid of excess positive charges, and that also helps support the mitochondria and the voltage on your cells. So there’s. There’s quite a few things.
Angelo Keely
It seems like all the stuff that’s really just, we’re told, is good for you, it’s all because it’s actually supporting the mitochondria.
Leanne Vogel
Yes. Couldn’t agree with you more. If people want to learn more about methylene blue or you’re kind of dabbling in that. I will say, though, that you really need to make sure that you don’t have G6PD, which is a genetic issue, and you will react very strongly to methylene blue. And it’s quite dangerous. And so make sure. That you are working with a practitioner or you do like a good amount of research before you play around with that. Because I have onboarded clients that have played with it on their own and it hasn’t been overly ideal.
Leanne Vogel
So I think with all these tools, you know, I think like with red light, that’s pretty, would you agree, like pretty safe for people to do like grab a light. But some of the other things like peptides or methylene blue, some caution is required and having discernment through that is really important.
Angelo Keely
Yeah. It used to be fish tank cleaner. So I’m like, I haven’t tried it yet. I’m just like observing. I like to, you know, just when new things come out, like the peptides, like just observe a little bit and wait, you know, and, and stick to like the foundational things for now. But I’m definitely watching and, and finding it really interesting.
Leanne Vogel
Yeah. Yeah. Whereas my personality is like, let’s go for it. I’ve done my research, I feel pretty good about it. If my clients are coming to me on these things, I should probably try them and see what happens. So.
Angelo Keely
That’s true. It helps. Yeah. If you could speak from experience.
Leanne Vogel
Exactly. Now there was something really interesting that you said kind of at the beginning of the answer to our last question, which was energy, calories, fat versus carbohydrates. And I don’t think a lot of people think of macros this way. I think a lot of us are trying to learn, or maybe we’re not even there yet in our thinking is like a calorie is a calorie. As long as I hit whatever the calorie goal is, 1400, I’m good. So if that comes in the form of more protein, based on our conversation, that’s great. Where I find women specifically struggle with is one, not eating enough protein and two, kind of willy nilly not understanding that energy calories are either fat or carbs. But kind of having them in an equal portion is not always ideal.
Leanne Vogel
And I find time and time again when I’m going through logs, women have equal amounts of both fat and carbs. And we kind of need to. Would you agree? Like we kind of need to make a decision. What are you using as your primary energy source? Are you using carbs or using fat? Would you agree with that? Or how would you kind of have that conversation when it comes to the energy calories?
Angelo Keely
So I mean, I think it comes down to a few things. Like I don’t think all calories are created equal because we know that Certain macros have different properties and also have different thermogenic effects. So protein, obviously, I don’t think of it as an energy macro. I think of it as like a biological necessity. And with that, it also not only helps trigger muscle protein synthesis and help you build muscle, but it also has a, the highest thermogenic effect. So up to 30% of the calories you consume in the form of protein are just burned off from breaking it down, processing it, and the initiation of muscle protein synthesis. With fat and carbs, ultimately, I can see where you’re coming from. You ultimately want to be either firmly in the glucose burner camp or the fat burner.
Angelo Keely
I’ve recently been changing my thinking on this because I’ve been learning more about metabolic flexibility and how metabolic flexibility truly is tested in the presence of both fat and carbs. If you’re a carb burner and you can’t burn fat, then, and I think that’s terrible. Like, you definitely want to be able to burn fat, burn your own stored fat, burn fat that you eat. However, I don’t know if it’s optimal if someone is only able to burn fat and not burn carbs. Like, I’m still researching that question and trying to understand it myself. Like, ultimately the ultimate flexibility is that you can do both, you know, and you can do both well. So I’ve recently started wearing a CGM and I’ve been doing experiments to see how my body, like, handles different things. And it’s been really interesting because what I thought was happening really wasn’t happening.
Angelo Keely
Like, my body has really become very insulin sensitive in the last years, like from practicing keto for so long, from focusing on protein, from becoming more active. The biggest thing really, I think, is the activity, because when you do keto, like, you take away the carbohydrates, which is great and can really help you rapidly, I think, help rebuild your metabolic health. But ultimately, I think you want to get to the point where you can, like, have some carbohydrate and your body doesn’t, you know, have this crazy spike and stay up for hours, right? Like, you want your body to be able to, to be insulin sensitive to, you know, whatever you eat. So I’ve been having a lot of fun wearing a CGM and testing things and being like, you know, I tested like half a banana and then like homemade hummus and all these things. I’m like, wow. Like, it’s really surprising and really interesting to learn the, that, you know, you can make your body more insulin sensitive, more metabolically. Flexible And I think it really has come down to the fact that I just have way more lean mass now and I have that energy disposal. So it really comes down I think to the individual, how much energy disposal they have, how much capacity they have based on their amount of lean mass.
Angelo Keely
For me, as long as you optimize protein, I’m not really concerned like if people get their calories in from all carbs, all fats or a mix like whatever works best for you as an individual. I personally prefer to do a lower carb approach because I feel more satisfied for longer. I find protein and fat to be more nutrient dense. But I do have some carbs in my diet now, healthy carbs, low glycemic ones and whatever that fuel mix is. If you have goals to have some ketosis, I still want to have some ketones for my cognition, especially becoming a new mom. I don’t have the same cognition that I used to. I don’t, I don’t get sleep that often. So like I have to get into ketosis sometimes to podcast like to be able to, to think clearly and to recall words.
Angelo Keely
So yeah, I think it depends ultimately like what makes you feel full. Ketones also help you sustain a caloric deficit for a much longer period of time. And you don’t feel those like blood sugar lows. I think as much as you would if you’re doing high carb, optimal protein, low fat. But some people say they feel great on that, they feel more energetic and hydrated. So you know, I think it really comes down to individual like how they want to, they want to do it. I’m always going to be biased towards low carb. That’s just like I just think you’re going to avoid more processed foods that way.
Leanne Vogel
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Leanne Vogel
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Leanne Vogel
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Leanne Vogel
What I’m hearing you say in conjunction with just your uniqueness is going to dictate kind of the approach you take, but also as your body changes, your approach is going to be different.
Angelo Keely
Yes.
Leanne Vogel
Because as you build muscle and as you have more, you know, your mitochondrial health is better. And now all of a sudden you’re finding like, wow, I can actually go to the gym and lift heavy things. And I just went for a sprint the other day and I have the energy to do that. And as you’re changing your activities and your body’s changing, it’s probably normal for those macros to change as a result of that. Like, you 10 years ago couldn’t have had that banana or hummus. There’s no way. Same with me. Like, I had oats for breakfast this morning and I’m like, who am I right now? There was no way that I could handle that.
Leanne Vogel
And wearing a CGM actually showed me that glyphosate free oats. I don’t respond poorly to them whatsoever. Which is. I would have never known that had I not worn a CGM multiple times. Like, is this thing broken? I should apply another one. What’s happening right now, now? So as our body is changing, so does our plan need to change? And would you say that some of the issues that we have is that we’re so stuck on? Well, this worked at this period of my life, so it needs to continue working and we’re not willing to shift. Like, do you see that also in, in playing a role in some of these problems.
Angelo Keely
Yeah. And I think. Yeah, I think there’s, like, ideological issues. There’s, like, dogma. There’s like, there’s something about this psychological effect where if you identify with a diet and a diet name, that it helps you be more successful in that diet, then I think it’s hard to break out of that afterwards. Like, it can become hard to break out of that. But I think tools like cgms, which I heard this summer, are becoming.
Leanne Vogel
Yep.
Angelo Keely
Yeah, they’re becoming, like, unregulated. Right. Like, you can buy them without a prescription or something.
Leanne Vogel
It’s crazy. It is crazy. Like, Like, I think come the time this podcast goes live, it might actually be out right now. People are not really sure when it’s going to happen. August, September, October. That’s crazy. Yeah.
Angelo Keely
Because so many people I know, like, a lot of big companies, sort of like gatekeep them, like, you can get it, you know, if you use our service. And it makes it really unaffordable for people, for the average person. I ultimately want everyone to be able to have access to these tools. And I know the costs are going to come down in a big way, like, once that happens, because people could just, like, I don’t know if it’s going to be over the counter. If you could just walk into a.
Leanne Vogel
Drugstore pharmacy and, like, buy one and.
Angelo Keely
You can just use an app that’s, you know, allowing you to use their technology. But I think that is just such a game changer for so many people to be able to learn and understand how their body responds, as you said, to those, like, changes over time. And once you recondition your body, like, at 38% body fat, there’s no way that I could, like, maintain a lean physique eating carbs and, like, eating carbs that are, you know, I’m not having bananas every day, but, like, just eating in a way where I’m not concerned so much about, like, the carbohydrate content like I used to be. For someone who’s in a state where they’re not metabolically fit, I think keto is one of the best ways to start. To start into, like, your body’s ability to burn fuel, bring down the carbohydrate, get them, minimize them so that, you know, you can, like, burn fat. They’ve proven that ketogenic diets are the best for burning fat, you know, so you want to become metabolically flexible, shed some body fat. Then, like, I experienced this myself. Then once you start losing some fat and making your Body, you know, more lean, you start getting energy back and you start being like, I want to work out, like I actually enjoy.
Angelo Keely
You start realizing like these bodies are made to enjoy activity and action. Like sitting on the couch is great, I love it too in the evening. But they’re made to enjoy movement. And you start realizing how delicious like movement can be when you have the energy for it. And your mitochondria starts getting repaired because you’re not getting that low grade inflammation anymore from your fat cells being overfull. So like it’s all this, this cascade effect that makes you feel literally more energetic. You want to go out and do things. Lifting weight starts feeling great.
Angelo Keely
It becomes like addictive in the best way. And you just, you know, want to move more and then you’re on your way. Like you’re spiraling up, you’re on your way. But when you. Sometimes I think when people just hear like, you need to eat less and move more, I think that, that, yeah, it’s like the worst because you, you have no energy. So you’re like, how do I work out when I have no energy and I just want to lay down all the time? And like I was in that place. I’m so thankful for Keto for helping me to get on that path. Like be, start, become metabolically flexible and then eventually getting to the point where I have like all this energy and metabolic flexibility to go do things and eat in this way.
Leanne Vogel
I love that idea of the progression that you just highlighted. I think that if individuals didn’t hear that well, like rewind two minutes and listen to that again, because that’s such a beautiful description of the progression that one can go through by understanding that you’re starting at one place, you’re ending in another. And there’s a progression of how you’re adjusting your macros, how your movement starts playing a role. And I experienced that as well too. There’s no way that I could be doing the workouts that I’m doing now. Five years ago, when I was metabolically broken and just working through how to reset the metabolism. And so you’re right. When we’re told like, just eat less and exercise more, that would have ruined me at that point.
Leanne Vogel
Like that wouldn’t have helped me progress. And that spiraling up, as you mentioned, I think is so, so key to the whole process now. I’d love to spend our last few minutes just understanding from a macro perspective. We talked a little bit about protein and how this changes, making sure that as you’re losing weight you’re keeping your, I guess I should say as you’re changing your body composition, you’re keeping your protein up. And we’re not dropping down our protein. We’ve talked about the energy, calories, fat and carbs and kind of how to manipulate that. When it comes to just the conversation around eating more protein. I find a lot of people will just go for the powders and, you know, shakes and things to try to boost up the protein.
Leanne Vogel
Does the protein quality matter? And what should we be looking for when it comes to just that increase in protein? Where are we getting it from? Are beans gonna do it? Is it chicken? Is it whey protein? Is it fair life shakes? Like what, what are we talking about here?
Angelo Keely
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think everyone has this question. You know, they’re like, I heard there’s amino acids in cucumbers, like, can I eat? You know, you Google protein and it’s like, make a chickpea salad. And it’s like, you know, there’s a lot of information out there. Not all of it is optimal, I think. So you want to make sure when you’re prioritizing more protein, you’re naturally going to displace more energy, calories just from eating more protein, which is like the first thing. So you won’t even notice. Sometimes you’re, you’re cutting back on calories, energy because you’re just getting more thermogenesis from the protein.
Angelo Keely
You’re displacing those other foods. And if you want to target at your meal having at least 30 grams of protein, this is what the research shows. If you have an animal source protein, whether it’s from animal proteins like meat, chicken, fish, seafood, et cetera, or dairy, that is the highest quality, the most biosorbable, has the highest biological value score. And so you’re going to be able to break that down and absorb it way more than plant based proteins. If you’re doing a plant based protein, you can still do it. You just have to eat more. So you want to shoot for at least 35 grams of protein at your meal. That’s going to give you about 2.5 grams of leucine at least, which is the minimum needed of that amino acid, which when those levels raise in your blood triggers the process of muscle protein synthesis.
Angelo Keely
So if you’re always eating less than that at your meals, you’re not getting, you’re getting some protein. Like if you think you eat protein but you’re getting some, just make sure you’re getting at Least that much at each meal or else you’re not going to be triggering muscle protein synthesis in the way that you need to. So whichever meal it is, if you eat three meals a day, or six, or you only do one, at least 30 grams. And we’ve now learned based on new research that came out in December, that there’s no upper limit on protein. So if you like to do OMAD and get 100 grams of protein at your meal, you don’t have to be concerned anymore that everything over 25 grams is wasted. Which is what we used to believe until this brand new landmark study came out. Now we understand all that protein is used by the body. It’s just used over a period of like 12 hours instead of 4 hours.
Angelo Keely
So you don’t also have to worry about timing it around your work. It really doesn’t matter as long as you get it in in your day. So targeting a minimum I think is really important. Like I said, the animal based or dairy proteins are the most absorbable. If you want to go towards like a whey protein powder, I really, really, really recommend looking at the quality and the ingredients and making sure that you’re getting a whey protein isolate. So a lot of times people complain like I tried whey protein and it made me bloated or I broke out. A lot of times the protein is, it’ll say isolate on the front, but when you look at the ingredients, the first ingredient is whey protein concentrate. It’s much cheaper to make and that has fats in it, it has lactose in it, it has, you know, a lot of things that people have issues with.
Angelo Keely
Whereas whey protein isolate doesn’t have lactose, doesn’t have casein, doesn’t have fat, doesn’t have those more problematic molecules in them. It’s just pure whey protein isolate and that’s what you want to make sure that you’re getting and that that’s going to have enough leucine also. So if you’re having trouble getting a protein in your day, if you add in one protein shake or sometimes like what I’ll do is just have plain yogurt and I’ll put protein powder in it and it tastes really good as well. So there’s lots of different ways that you can get it in. But I think that that’s, you really want to make sure you’re getting high quality when it comes to the whey.
Leanne Vogel
Protein and you have your own protein. Can you tell us more about that and how it kind of feeds into your Recommendations?
Angelo Keely
Yes. Thank you so much. I launched my own protein in December called tone protein, and I really could not find a protein powder that was super clean, was just whey protein isolate, and just didn’t have all kinds of gunk in it. Especially an ingredient you’ll see all the time is sunflower lechesin, which is basically seed oil. And it’s used as like in the process to make the whey protein powder, you know, to form better. You don’t have to use that necessarily. What I put in mine are gums. And a lot of people don’t realize that those gums actually, like xanthan gum, acacia gums, they actually have beneficial properties, beneficial health properties.
Angelo Keely
So you can use that instead of seed oils. And so that’s what we put in tone protein. So it’s whey protein isolate, and then we use some gums and vanilla bean and monk fruit. I’m working on a couple of versions with stevia and allulose in the future. But right now we have, we use monk fruit and I think it tastes great because it’s sweetened to the point where, like, you can just make a shake with it. I make a shake every single day with ice frozen berries, a cup of frozen berries, some unsweetened almond milk, and toned protein. Or like I said, I put it in yogurt and it is enhanced with the amino acid leucine. So no matter what, as long as you do, you know, the one serving size, you’re going to get enough leucine in it to make sure that you trigger muscle protein synthesis.
Angelo Keely
So there’s no other whey protein like it on the market that’s enhanced with leucine right now.
Leanne Vogel
I’m so happy for you. That’s so cool. Look at you, business lady.
Angelo Keely
Yeah, it’s been really fun and I love taking it every day. I created the protein that I wanted to take personally, and it’s been so much fun to see people really enjoying it and liking it, too.
Leanne Vogel
Where can people find more from you and how to connect? You mentioned your podcast. Just tell us all the places.
Angelo Keely
Yes. So I mentioned to you before we started, I am launching a collagen tone Collagen. The research behind it is super exciting. It’s been scientifically proven to help reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles and boost collagen and elastin in the skin. And if you want to find out more about that, you can go to toneprotein.com and there’s an email list there and you can sign up to be notified when it comes out and also get the discount. I host the Optimum Protein Podcast every week so we talk all about what we talked about in the episode today. And every week I get to speak to some incredible scientists and researchers and physicians who know all about protein and we talk about what that optimal amount really is, you know, for optimal metabolic health and fitness. And you can find me at Ketogenic Girl on Instagram.
Angelo Keely
Those are most of the places that you can find me.
Leanne Vogel
Vanessa, thanks for coming on the show again. This is great. Thank you so much.
Angelo Keely
I had so much fun. Thanks for having me back Leanne.
Leanne Vogel
I hope you enjoyed our time with Vanessa again. Her website is ketogenicgirl.com her tone protein and tone collagen can be found@toneprotein.com and of course she is the host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. Okay, we will see you back here next Tuesday for another episode. Have a great one. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Helpful Pursuit Podcast. Join us next Tuesday for another episode of the show. If you’re looking for free resources, there are a couple places you can go.
Leanne Vogel
The first to my blog, healthfulpursuit.com where you’re going to find loads of recipes. The second is a free parasite protocol that I’ve put together for you that outlines symptoms, testing and resources to determine whether or not you have a parasite, plus a full protocol to follow to eradicate them from your life if you need to. That’s available@healthfulpursuit.com parasites and lab, but certainly not least a full list of blood work markers to ask your doctor for so that you can get a full picture of your health. You can grab that free resource by going to healthfulpursuit.com labs the helpful pursuit Podcast, including show notes and links, provides information in respect to healthy living recipes, nutrition and diet and is intended for informational purposes only. The information provided is not assigned substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment, nor is it to be construed as such. We cannot guarantee that the information provided on the Healthful Pursuit Podcast reflects the most up to date medical research. Information is provided without any representation or warranties of any kind. Please consult a qualified health practitioner with any questions you may have regarding your health and nutrition program.
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Hi! I'm Leanne (RHN FBCS)
a Functional Medicine Practitioner, host of the Healthful Pursuit Podcast, and best-selling author of The Keto Diet & Keto for Women. I want to live in a world where every woman has access to knowledge to better her health.
